Az angol feliratot lást alább:
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Thinking Allowed
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Conversations On the Leading Edge of Knowledge
and Discovery, with Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove.
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Hello and welcome.
I am Jeffrey Mishlove.
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Today we are going to explore the province of the mind.
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With me is Dr. John C. Lilly, a noted pioneer of
mystical states, of states of consciousness,
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and also interspecies communication.
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Dr. Lilly is a former researcher with the National Institutes
of Health and the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center.
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He is the author of some five books on human-dolphin communication,
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including Lilly on Dolphins, Man and Dolphin, The Mind of
the Dolphin, Communication between Man and Dolphin.
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He has written many books on deep inner exploration,
including The Deep Self, The Center of the Cyclone,
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The Dyadic Cyclone, and The Scientist,
and he is particularly known for Programming
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and Metaprogramming the Human Biocomputer.
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In fact he introduced that term, the biocomputer, into our language.
Welcome, John.
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Thank you.
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It’s a real pleasure to be with you.
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I think it would be good to start with your famous maxim about
what is true in the province of the mind.
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Could you begin by repeating that?
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In the province of the mind what one believes to be true,
either is true or becomes true within certain limits.
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These limits are to be found experimentally and experientially.
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When so found these limits turn out to be further
beliefs to be transcended.
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In the province of the mind there are no limits.
However, in the province of the body
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there are definite limits not to be transcended.
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You’ve probably devoted your whole life,
and certainly many decades recently,
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to pushing to see what really were the limits —
by going into new realities,
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taking on the belief systems of those realities,
and then coming back to your basic working reality
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and challenging those beliefs, integrating those beliefs with your own.
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In your writings you’ve explored almost every state of
consciousness I could imagine —
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the various mystical levels of satori, communication with extraterrestrials,
communication with other species.
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You’ve established probably a more significant mapping of
inner space than almost any
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other modern person, and I think we all owe a great debt to you for that.
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But don’t get stuck with those. I’ve abandoned all of them.
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It’s impossible, because there are infinities within the mind.
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I think that’s the beauty of your work,
is that you keep moving further and further out.
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In The Center of the Cyclone you described a state —
you had a whole system,
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virtually a quantitative system, for mapping states of
consciousness, and you talked
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about one that I found most fascinating,
which you call +3, Mega Samadhi.
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In that state you describe going so far out of your body,
even out of the physical universe,
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to the point of being at the level of essence,
in which the physical universe is created.
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That almost seemed to me, in reading that book,
like an ultimate state of consciousness,
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but I know you wrote about it some fifteen years ago.
How does it look to you now?
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Well, there’s one state beyond +3. That’s +1,
but you’re not allowed to remember
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that once you go into it. It’s union with God.
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That’s the true yoga,
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and so you’re nonhuman,
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so there’s no way you can recount what happened.
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You have no way of saying it, because it’s beyond language.
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Well, all those states are beyond language.
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Language is a very poor instrument to express it.
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In some of your other writings you’ve described language
as being a thin film
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that separates us from reality.
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Much as we try to use language to describe what we mean,
it really puts barriers up.
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Well, there’s one use of language that’s valid.
That’s the injunctive use —
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telling you how to do things.
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The descriptive one’s very poor,
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and William James said that the other realities are separated
from this one by the filmiest of screens.
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I found that this screen is language, so you have to abandon it
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when you’re going to these other realities.
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In addition to +1 and +3, you’ve mapped out +6.
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That’s a state of consciousness, as I recall,
in which the mind can travel
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to any point in physical or nonphysical space.
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But you maintain your individuality.
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That must be a basic mode of the psychic explorer.
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I gather from reading much of your work that you
spent a great deal of time in +6.
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Right, and in +12.
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Plus 12 is the blissful idiot.
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You’re in your body; you’re right here and now,
but everything is happy.
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There’s gold dust particles in the air,
and everything is good.
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You can feel energy moving in and out of
the different psychic centers of the body.
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And if a bird calls, you hear it echoing through the galaxy.
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But that’s not much use,
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unless you can find another bliss being in the same space.
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Many of the mystical teachings warn against getting stuck
in some of these realities.
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Right. I haven’t been in any of them since that time.
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You also refer, in your mapping of states, to +48,
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which is sort of a perfectly neutral state.
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Right. Plus 24 is the professional state of
any discipline that you’re involved in,
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where you’re lost in the discipline.
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Forty-eight is where you’re communicating with everybody else.
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Then there are the minus states, but I don’t go into those.
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No, but at one point you wrote about the importance of going
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into the minus states and remaining perfectly aware,
being conscious
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in those negative states, not trying to block out the negativity.
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You described that, as I recall, as burning karma.
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In The Center of the Cyclone there’s a chapter
called “A Guided Tour of Hell,”
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which is -6.
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That was awful. So I never had to go back to that.
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And I was never frightened again.
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I was totally terrified in that one.
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I suppose it’s what the Christian mystics sometimes refer to
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as the dark night of the soul.
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Well, it was the dark night of my soul.
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Perhaps this is a necessary part of everybody’s journey,
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is to go through the epitome of terror.
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Right. For instance, there’s an Iranian psychiatrist,
an American psychiatrist,
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that put a hundred patients in a mental hospital in Iran through
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what they feared most, on Ketamine, and they all left the hospital.
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Now, I tried the same thing, after I read that.
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That evening I took 150 milligrams of Ketamine, and suddenly
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the Earth Coincidence Control Office removed my penis
and handed it to me.
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I screamed in terror.
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My wife Toni came running in from the bedroom,
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and she said, “It’s still attached.”
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So I shouted at the ceiling,
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“Who’s in charge up there? A bunch of crazy kids?”
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The answer came back, “Well, you had an unconscious fear,
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so we put you through it,
just the way the Iranian psychiatrist did.”
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In the realm of the mind, the province of the mind,
we can face all our fears.
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Well, you may not be able to live with it,
but you should try it.
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I often find in dreams that the things that
would destroy the body,
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in the realm of the mind, don’t.
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That’s right.
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The survival programs, as I found out earlier
from doing neurophysiology,
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are built into the brain.
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The rewarding systems, euphoric systems,
and the sexual systems,
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and the painful, punishing, anger systems are all built in.
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And then you realize that the cerebral cortex
has many, many paths
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to these systems and from these systems,
so you don’t have to go through these states.
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Let’s focus a little bit on some of the terms
you mentioned a moment ago.
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You mentioned Ketamine. What is Ketamine?
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Ketamine is the most commonly used anesthetic for
very young children and old people.
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In the literature there are emergence symptoms that are described,
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emergence being coming out of the anesthetic.
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Some doctors don’t like those emergence symptoms,
so they won’t use it.
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Others know what they are, so they just hold the hand
of the patient and help him come out.
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It was the most commonly used anesthetic in Vietnam.
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Some places won’t use it at all, but are frightened of it.
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Basically, what a strong dose of Ketamine will do is
make you unaware of your body.
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Yes, it can.
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I don’t like it anymore.
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But it creates a state where one can enter into inner realitiess
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free from the attachments of the body.
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ECCO told me to stop using it,
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and get back here and learn how to be human.
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In your book The Scientist you describe going through a period
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of very intensive explorations with Vitamin K,
as you described it at that point —
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to the extent that people thought you were —
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and it’s not clear to me whether you were or not —
addicted to the substance.
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Well, when one is doing research on a substance,
one takes it so frequently
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that outside observers can say you’re addicted,
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but that’s a very bad definition of addiction.
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I think in many ways whether you were or weren’t,
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one has to admire your willingness to always push
the frontiers of our knowledge further,
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and it’s clear that that was your motivation for the work that you did.
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Any good research is obsessive and compulsive.
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You also mentioned the term ECCO.
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What is ECCO?
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E-C-C-O. In Italian it means, “This is it.”
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But it means to me the Earth Coincidence Control Office,
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which is one of God’s field offices.
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ECCO runs our lives, though we won’t admit it.
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If you’re an ECCO agent, you can be very, very careful
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to use your best intelligence in ECCO’s service,
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and you realize there are no discoveries, there are only revelations.
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That was a come-down for me as a scientist.
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Well, I’ve found in my own work in the media and parapsychology,
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that I’m very much guided by coincidences.
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– Right.
– And I guess it’s looking to coincidences as
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signs along the way that defines this relationship with
what you’ve defined as ECCO.
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Right, the Earth Coincidence Control.
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It’s coincidence control that they do, and they say,
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“We control the long-term coincidences;
you control the short-term ones.
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And when you find out how we do the long-term ones,
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you no longer have to remain on earth;
you don’t have to return there.”
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It seems to me as if your concept of ECCO is
a way of modeling a mechanism
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behind what Jung has defined as synchronocity.
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That’s right. Jung defined synchronicity
only in a good fashions
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in his introduction to the I Ching,
and he uses the term…
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coincidences.
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Meaningful coincidences.
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But of course the coincidences are in your own construction,
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your own language construction of the events.
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So that’s all a fake too.
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As I say at the beginning of my workshops,
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“Everything I say here is a lie
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— bullshit, in other words —
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because anything that you put in words is not experience,
is not the experiment.
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It’s a representation — a misrepresentation.”
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And here we are misrepresenting to each other in order
that we can learn from these lies.
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Right. Now if you use language injunctively,
as a set of directions,
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then it’s not as bad as it is otherwise.
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So in other words, for example,
when you talk about ECCO,
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when you talk about perhaps going into
an inner reality using sensory isolation,
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which is one of the other technologies in which you pioneered —
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In 1954, I invented it.
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Or using a number of different molecules
which can be used for this purpose,
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or mystical disciplines — when one enters into these realities,
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each set of instructions carries with it usually a belief system.
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– Right.
– And basically what you’re saying is
that all of these belief systems are wrong,
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but one needs to entertain or to hold the belief system
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in order to follow through the instructions.
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Our brains are so small we have to do this.
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So the belief system itself becomes a tool that we work with,
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and then eventually we have to let go of.
– Right.
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And using these belief systems,
you’ve been able to in effect map out the inner terrain
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of inner space in a manner which has as rich and varied
flora and fauna and geography
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as one would find on any continent,
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But if you take the same kinds of trips,
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you’ll find a different flora and fauna at different times.
– Each time.
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So in the province of the mind there aren’t any limits.
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And yet if one pushes that very, very far,
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I guess no limits almost means nothing.
There’s nothing there.
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Limits is what defines things, it’s what creates form.
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I hadn’t thought of it that way.
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Well, there are no limits that you put on it previously,
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and new limits may appear,
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which define it in an entirely new way,
which is much larger.
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That’s all that means.
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I almost have the sense, though,
that if there are no limits in the province of the mind,
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that we humans and other beings create limits
of our own to make it interesting,
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to make the game worth playing.
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Well, you can’t live as a human without limits,
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and that’s your body. They’re built into your brain.
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The pattern recognition system is in your brain, for instance.
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If one hallucinates, say, on cocaine,
one sees a bush over there as
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an old lady crying with a shawl over her head.
You walk over and it’s a bush.
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Now if somebody else is on cocaine and they look
at that same bush,
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they’ll see the old lady crying.
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So this apparently is pattern recognition systems that
are built into our brains,
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and are given at birth probably.
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In other words, in certain altered states of consciousness,
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there is an ability, I suppose, to be telepathic,
to cognize the thoughts directly of another person.
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I think it’s more than that.
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It’s a particularly noisy pattern of the bush,
in striking your brain, is reorganized,
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personified by the brain.
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All brains do the same thing, even if you’re not
in telepathic communication.
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So you have an alternate there.
Do you know about alternity?
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Alternity, that’s a wonderful word. No.
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I experienced alternity very dramatically when I came back from Chile.
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I sat in Elizabeth Campbell’s living room in Los Angeles,
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in what I call the prophet meditation.
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— sitting on the floor, my spine ramrod straight.
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Suddenly a line of light comes down through my spine,
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and there are leaves of different realities all around me.
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I can look into the future, and the present is here
in each of those as it goes on
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out to many years from now, and goes to infinity upwards.
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There’s a tremendous amount of power going through this.
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Well, the next morning I was thrown out of bed by
the Sylmar earthquake, and I thought,
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“Gee, did I cause that? Or was it caused by
the same energy that went through me?”
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00:17:43,092 –> 00:17:46,060
And then I realized that this was hubris —
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he whom the gods would destroy, he has hubris.
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Filled with pride.
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And so I lost my pride, and I realized that I couldn’t
explain either of them.
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Alternity, as you’ve described it, then,
would seem to be a space
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in which you’re in touch with many alternate realities,
all simultaneously.
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Yes, and then you get caught with one, as I did.
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It seems very similar in a way to what physicists
are describing when they
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talk about the multiple-universe interpretation of quantum physics.
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That’s right.
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00:18:23,034 –> 00:18:27,050
Francis Jeffreys is writing my biography,
and he describes alternity
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from the wave function of quantum mechanics,
and when you collapse it
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you’ve chosen one alternate in future.
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You’ve referred several times now to the fact that
in the province of the body
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there are limits, and you yourself have thrown yourself
up against those limits
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on many occasions and have written about it.
255
00:18:52,000 –> 00:18:57,054
In your writing you seem to be warning people maybe
not to do everything that you’ve done.
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That’s right. They don’t have to.
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See this hand? I have to keep it in ointment,
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because on 11-11-87 I drove my car up a slight bank,
turned it over, and totaled it.
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00:19:12,004 –> 00:19:16,098
The battery acid burned this hand,
and these knuckles were broken, and that’s all.
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If I’d had my seat belt on I would have been decapitated.
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But ECCO was showing me something,
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that I wasn’t exploring alternatesss properly.
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I was caught with one.
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There’s a wonderful section in your book The Scientist,
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in which you describe a conversation amongst different
beings in an altered state,
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who are describing how carefully they worked
to create all the coincidences
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00:19:46,046 –> 00:19:49,008
so that you could have an accident in which
you nearly died,
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and were resuscitated by your wife Toni
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who had just learned mouth-to-mouth resuscitation three days earlier.
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Right.
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Then the other accident, the one that closed off Vitamin K for me,
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where I was on a ten-speed bicycle going down Decker Canyon Road,
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and the chain caught, and I hit the road and nine bones were broken.
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But I didn’t say in The Scientist that I was on PCP at the time,
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forty-two milligrams injected.
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So I was out in the hospital for five days and five nights,
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00:20:24,070 –> 00:20:29,008
and was taken by ECCO to planets that were being destroyed
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by supernova waves, by atomic warfare, and so on.
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It was incredible.
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When I’d try to come back here, I’d come back and Toni would be there
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and I’d grab on for six or seven hours,
then they’d take me back out.
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I hadn’t finished the lessons.
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What do you think the lesson is?
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Well, the lesson in that case was,
“Look up the dose for PCP before you take any.”
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It’s two milligrams, not forty-two.
286
00:21:01,042 –> 00:21:04,007
And the other lessons, of course,
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were that I came back and wanted to put on radiation suits.
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This planet is not very stable. It can be destroyed at any time.
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There’s a sense in the way in which you live your life,
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right out on the very edge of what would
be called not just normalcy,
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00:21:23,022 –> 00:21:25,083
or the edge of what is conventionally safe to do,
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00:21:25,098 –> 00:21:29,033
but the very edge of what is physically possible
for a human being to do —
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Going to the limits of the body.
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And in so doing — well, of course you’ve discovered,
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00:21:35,068 –> 00:21:39,088
like the Fool in the Tarot deck,
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00:21:40,000 –> 00:21:43,026
you put yourself into this position of nascent wisdom,
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in which you’re bound to make mistakes.
298
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One can’t explore the way you have without making mistakes,
299
00:21:49,046 –> 00:21:52,082
and yet those very mistakes seem to propel you even deeper.
300
00:21:53,022 –> 00:21:56,093
I have a saying, “There are no mistakes,
there are only correctable errors.
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There are no errors, there are only alternate programs.”
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00:22:00,084 –> 00:22:02,090
They just get the guilt.
303
00:22:04,052 –> 00:22:10,010
There is a sense in which you have lived your life on the internal reality,
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that I almost feel like your being with me here in a TV studio is like
305
00:22:15,078 –> 00:22:19,078
you’ve come up for air a little bit to breathe together with us,
306
00:22:19,090 –> 00:22:23,060
and to share what it’s like in these vast, vast realms,
307
00:22:23,074 –> 00:22:27,084
light years away from planetside reality.
308
00:22:28,054 –> 00:22:33,030
I call that in-sanity, and when we’re talking together we’re in out-sanity.
309
00:22:33,082 –> 00:22:37,084
And you should never try to express all of
your in-sanity in the out-sanity,
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00:22:37,096 –> 00:22:39,064
or they’ll lock you up.
311
00:22:40,054 –> 00:22:44,050
But in a way you’ve expressed more of your in-sanity
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00:22:44,066 –> 00:22:46,058
than most people would ever dare to.
313
00:22:47,066 –> 00:22:53,068
Well, a lot of people take my books as permission
314
00:22:53,090 –> 00:22:55,032
to go further with that.
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00:22:55,092 –> 00:22:59,006
One would almost think an entire generation,
316
00:22:59,018 –> 00:23:03,002
perhaps several generations of people, now feel much freer
317
00:23:03,018 –> 00:23:08,004
to describe their own inner experiences because of people like you
318
00:23:08,022 –> 00:23:10,063
doing it at a time when it was much riskier.
319
00:23:11,004 –> 00:23:14,088
I’m always surprised at how many people have read my books
320
00:23:15,000 –> 00:23:16,058
and been influenced by them.
321
00:23:17,022 –> 00:23:20,030
Well, I can certainly say that that’s the case for me.
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00:23:20,070 –> 00:23:22,081
I think you’ll like the new edition of The Scientist.
323
00:23:22,096 –> 00:23:27,028
It has all the things I left out of the first one,
seventy-five new pages in it,
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00:23:27,078 –> 00:23:30,094
and fifty new photographs.
325
00:23:31,046 –> 00:23:34,064
And I admit that it was Ketamine, not Vitamin K.
326
00:23:35,060 –> 00:23:38,053
But you’re not using Ketamine currently.
-No.
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I don’t like it anymore.
328
00:23:42,024 –> 00:23:45,063
Are you still doing work in sensory isolation?
329
00:23:45,064 –> 00:23:50,014
Once in a while. But I never talk about what I’m doing currently.
330
00:23:51,074 –> 00:23:56,032
Remember Human Biocomputer?
I was doing that work with LSD in the tank
331
00:23:56,064 –> 00:23:59,090
in St. Thomas, and the National Institute of Mental Health,
332
00:24:00,008 –> 00:24:03,040
from which I was on a fellowship,
thought I was just working with dolphins.
333
00:24:03,076 –> 00:24:06,018
So when I sent them Human Biocomputer as the report
334
00:24:06,030 –> 00:24:08,053
for five years of the fellowship, they wrote back,
335
00:24:08,064 –> 00:24:12,098
“We didn’t realize we were going to get a monograph from this work.”
336
00:24:13,010 –> 00:24:15,040
I don’t think they read it.
– And they cut off your funding
337
00:24:15,052 –> 00:24:16,035
shortly thereafter, didn’t they?
338
00:24:16,048 –> 00:24:21,060
Yes. Somebody told the people supporting the dolphin research
339
00:24:21,078 –> 00:24:23,081
that I had brain damage from LSD.
340
00:24:24,002 –> 00:24:26,056
Well, I got that rumor,
341
00:24:26,086 –> 00:24:33,074
so I took it to the head of the Mental Health Council
that was supporting the work.
342
00:24:34,030 –> 00:24:37,012
He was the head of the Neurological Institute in New York,
343
00:24:37,064 –> 00:24:41,058
and he got angry when they said that,
so he spent three days examining me.
344
00:24:41,090 –> 00:24:43,040
I never had such a thorough examination.
345
00:24:43,082 –> 00:24:47,010
He got angrier and angrier.
He said, “Absolutely no evidence.”
346
00:24:47,032 –> 00:24:49,072
He said, “Do you want any more research money?”
347
00:24:49,080 –> 00:24:52,002
I said, “No, I’ve quit that.” So he said,
348
00:24:52,016 –> 00:24:57,088
“All right, I’m going to fire two people,
one in the Institute and one on my committee.”
349
00:24:58,022 –> 00:24:59,010
So he did.
350
00:24:59,072 –> 00:25:04,072
Well, I suppose for our culture the really special thing about you is the fact
351
00:25:04,082 –> 00:25:10,026
that you really have a foot in both worlds,
the scientific camp and the mystical camp.
352
00:25:10,078 –> 00:25:14,028
And in a way you seem dissatisfied with both of them.
353
00:25:14,038 –> 00:25:19,044
Neither camp seems to provide an adequate enough model of reality for you.
354
00:25:19,064 –> 00:25:21,096
My own beliefs are unbelievable.
355
00:25:23,048 –> 00:25:27,058
And you seem to be saying that it’s up to each person to
356
00:25:27,086 –> 00:25:30,052
in effect make the same bridge that you have,
357
00:25:30,066 –> 00:25:34,052
and to create their own belief system,
so that in creating that belief
358
00:25:34,068 –> 00:25:40,012
they can move into the state that that belief leads them to,
so that they can then discard it again.
359
00:25:40,038 –> 00:25:44,036
That’s the gnostic point of view — self transcendence,
360
00:25:44,050 –> 00:25:47,042
not transcendence through a church or a group.
361
00:25:48,054 –> 00:25:54,028
Back fifteen years ago or so, you were exploring the mystical states,
362
00:25:54,040 –> 00:25:57,048
as described classically as the various levels of samadhi,
363
00:25:57,060 –> 00:26:01,076
in your work with Oscar Ichazo in Chile, in the Arica school.
– Right.
364
00:26:02,058 –> 00:26:04,094
You had achieved, as we have described earlier,
365
00:26:05,004 –> 00:26:09,030
some of the very highest states of those mystical traditions,
366
00:26:09,040 –> 00:26:14,005
and you wrote about them from your own personal experience.
367
00:26:16,006 –> 00:26:21,068
People in the mystical traditions view these states as being ultimate states.
368
00:26:21,082 –> 00:26:23,084
I get the sense that you don’t think of them that way.
369
00:26:23,096 –> 00:26:27,066
You think of them more the way a scientist would look at tools.
370
00:26:28,046 –> 00:26:32,030
Well, Patanjali, for instance, in 400 B.C. said,
371
00:26:32,066 –> 00:26:38,086
“When you reach the highest form of samadhi,
you realize there are hundreds more beyond that.”
372
00:26:39,040 –> 00:26:41,090
I agree; there’s no limit.
373
00:26:43,022 –> 00:26:46,086
Well, John Lilly, it’s been a pleasure having you with me.
374
00:26:47,028 –> 00:26:50,098
Thank you very much.
– Thank you. It’s a pleasure being here.
375
00:26:51,046 –> 00:26:54,000
You sure do know how to ask the right questions.
